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[bryant]

One of my rules of thumb for evaluating RPG combat systems is the number of times you have to roll to resolve an attempt to hit, on average. For example, in D&D, you have to roll twice — once to hit, and once for damage. In Vampire, you roll at least three and often four times — once to hit, maybe once to dodge, once for damage, and once for soak. In Feng Shui, you roll once — the roll to hit is also the roll for damage.

My assumption is that (assuming a standard combat system, rather than something more narrativist) fewer is better, because it make combat flow more quickly. There’s an orthagonal concern, which is getting the feel of combat right; for most games, you don’t want to say “roll 1d6 and if you get a 4 you hit, and if you get a 5 you hit and kill.” That’s quick and simple but most likely not satisfying.

However, I recently decided that this is too simplistic. While playing Mutants & Masterminds, I found myself getting all antsy about the combat system. Which is weird, because it’s simple: one roll to hit, one roll for defense.

But it’s a different person for each roll!

So, the addendum: you have to take information transfer into account. Go back to D&D. Roll to hit, tell your opponent what you rolled, roll for damage, tell your opponent what you rolled. Compare and contrast to M&M — roll to hit, tell your opponent what you rolled, tell your opponent what your Damage bonus is, your opponent rolls a Damage save, your opponent tells you if you did damage.

Same number of rolls, but you keep having to pass information back and forth. Feng Shui, the ruling champion of quick combat systems, is way simple: roll to hit, tell your opponent what you rolled, opponent tells you if you did damage. Hero is on par with D&D — roll to hit, tell your opponent what you rolled, roll for damage, tell your opponent what you rolled.

Of course, you really ought to figure in math complexity. It’s easier to do the math in Feng Shui than it is in Hero, and Hero is noticably more complex than D&D (since you’re counting BODY and STUN from the same roll, and adding a lot more dice).

The key observation, though, is that information transfer matters. I’ve heard more than one game designer talk about giving the defender a chance to roll to “involve him in the game” and so on, but I begin to think that’s a misguided concept.

Comments

[aquamarcia.livejournal.com]

I've been playing a lot of both Feng Shui and M&M recently and I really like both combat systems. While I don't regard Feng Shui's single roll method as any less good than M&M's two roll method, I find I like combat in M&M in that its mechanism for defense is interactive and puts some of the probability for success in the hands of the defender. While I don't disagree with your argument about fewer rolls been better for flow of combat, I like the level of interactivity in M&M well enough to compensate for any differences in flow between it and Feng Shui.

I've also been playing a lot of Exalted and it's certainly fair to say that the extra complexity of combat is more of a burden. I still enjoy playing Exalted, though, at least in part because rolling a massive double-handful of dice has a visceral quality to it that cannot be found in any game where only a single die/few dice are used. :)

[bryant]

Rolling double-handfuls is very satisfying. I just started a Hero campaign, and I got to roll 14 dice in a whack last night, which was great.

My friend Chris K. had an idea about putting probability in the hands of the defender while minimizing flow problems, posted back on the home of this journal.

[head58.livejournal.com]

I would submit you also need to factor in the complexity of interpreting the die roll itself. I'll stick to supers games because it's what I know best.

V&V - Bastard child of old school D&D. Meaning of die rolls are very transparent.
DC Heroes (another system which resolves to hit and damage in one roll) - a bit more complex. Find result on chart, count column shifts, check result on table 2.
MnM - roll the die, but then there's a significant amount of basic math to bounce around (add attack value, subtract defense value of target, subtract wound modifiers, etc) before you know what happened. Moderatly complex with the potnetial to get painfully complex.
WW (Aberant, Adventure) - count how many dice are above target #. Simple enough.
Hero - Lots of basic math as you have to total up lots and lots and dice. For me, this is the hardest since I suck at basic math. Also, you then have to count up 1s and 6s and total that up as well when dealing with damage.
WEG's d6 (Star Wars, DCU, Xena & Herc) - see Hero
Godlike - the concept of determining "depth" and "breadth" (or whatever) of the roll is sufficiently intimidating that I have never even looked at this system.
Marvel SAGA - cards vs dice really bolloxes up the argument, but the ability to keep playing cards and adding value, and then you potnetially get to add in the value of a random flipped card could get messy, but is probably not all that tough.