Worldcon 2015

[bryant]

I am interested in your opinion regarding Helsinki, Orlando, and Spokane as Worldcon sites for 2015.

My bias is towards Orlando. I like their manifesto, particularly the emphasis on making Worldcon less expensive. I also like the single hotel concept. Helsinki looks really cool too, and would be my second choice, but if I think it's important to sustain Worldcon as a concept I gotta be worried about two in a row outside the US. And Spokane would be cheap for me!

I am completely out of touch with fannish politics, speaking of which -- does Helsinki have a chance? Would it be a waste of a vote?

I have no clue about competency of concoms. I'm very curious about that.

Comments

[autopope.livejournal.com]

I will actively vote against spokane -- arse end of nowhere, of no possible interest to anyone who doesn't live in the Midwest, has added disadvantage that car hire is a mandatory extra expense.

Helsinki is interesting and has the Finncon con-runner pool on tap to help with it.

Orlando ... I'd have said 'no' a few years ago, but having visited it, it's a fun resort city, if a bit fucking weird (Florida being psychologically next door to Texas, only with alligators).

I'd rank them Helsinki -> Orlando -> NO WORLDCON AT ALL -> Spokane.

[telepresence.livejournal.com]

I have no opinion aside from thinking you mean Northwest, not Midwest.

[autopope.livejournal.com]

Flyover country on the north American continent, but yes.

[kirbyk.livejournal.com]

Having been to Spokane, yeah. It's got very little to offer. It basically exists to be the butt of Seattleite Jokes. It's not even within a few hours drive of anything at all.

I'm impressed they got a bid together, but it's just not a compelling place.

[amberley.livejournal.com]

Orlando at the height of hurricane season sounds exciting.

I'm likely to go to Spokane (even if it is rather the middle of nowhere). Orlando is unlikely, Helsinki no way. But Orlando is probably the best choice, other than weather.

[autopope.livejournal.com]

When is hurricane season?

(I come from a land mass that doesn't have them, as a rule ...)

[bryant]

In the US, it's June 1st through November 30th. Orlando's in a ways from the coast; it's only been hit twice in the last 50 years. Disney did close the parks in 2004, though.

Still, LA gets earthquakes more than Orlando gets hurricanes.

[mizkit.livejournal.com]

I think Helsinki is a bad idea due to two Worldcons in a row outside the US/NA, myself, which is perhaps America-centric of me, but there you have it. I'd actually kind of like Spokane because it's close to Seattle and to many, many, many of my friends, and I didn't even know Orlando had a bid in, myself.

[jadasc.livejournal.com]

I fear that Orlando would only torpedo my dream bid of Miami in 2017. ("I've seen the lights go out on WorldCon...")

[mcurry.livejournal.com]

Helsinki would be the most motivating for me, because I prefer Worldcons in places that have lots of interesting things to do (and eat) outside of the con itself. Plus I think having it outside the U.S. two years in a row is fine because it is supposed to be the *World* science fiction convention, and Finncon is reportedly very well run.

Spokane...it's probably a fine city in its own way, but I don't think I'd travel there for a Worldcon.

Orlando is...well, Jenn attended RWA Nationals there a few years ago, and helping her with the planning showed that it's fine if you're looking for that generic Disney resort experience, and associated boring dining. Which I am definitely not. I suspect it's the likely winner though.

[totient]

Orlando has a very interesting idea: they want to solve the financial and physical access problems of Worldcon by ditching the convention center. Montreal was so spread out that even with 15 minute passing periods it was hard for people in mobies to attend consecutive panels. And because of the cost of the CC, Montreal cost over $200 at the door compared to Arisia which just raised its rates to $65. If Arisia can solve these problems at 3800 in Boston, then surely there's some facility somewhere that would solve them for a con that's less than a factor of two bigger than that.

There aren't a lot of facilities that solve the physical access problems, but there are some, including the Chicon 7 hotel. But Chicago is very expensive to do business in and the Worldcon there was nearly as financially inaccessible as Montreal. Orlando has some great facilities, appropriately sized and laid out for a Worldcon, and it is very cheap to do business in. Orlando could have a $80 or $90 at the door price. They could attract 10,000 people and have a spectacular Worldcon. Except for two problems.

The first problem is obvious: they are bidding Dragoncon weekend. Those 10,000 people are not going to show up.

The second problem is obvious to anyone who has ever been to their facility: while it is administratively one hotel, it is physically more than a dozen buildings, further across than Montreal's entire neighborhood. People with rental cars drive from their rooms to the lobby for the free breakfast. The layout is terrible. There is no way that 15 minute passing periods will be enough.

If they were bidding July 4 in the Peabody Orlando (which is much more suitable) I would probably have joined the bid.

Spokane on the other hand has physically (if not financially) perfect facilities. The hotel is in the middle of the convention center, not off to one side. The best room for the Hugos is off to one side, where you want it. The rooms are accessed from the middle instead of the edge, making passing periods easy. It's so easy to get around that people who've been there have a hard time believing that it's big enough, but it is. It's right in the middle of downtown, with lots of close by restaurants.

But if you've been paying any attention to the SF convention blogosphere in the last year, you will be aware of a cultural divide in fandom. We are finally getting over the Geek Social Fallacies, insisting that people treat each other like human beings, and dragging regional SF conventions out of their unexamined patriarchal attitudes into the 21st century. Not everyone likes this idea and much of the resistance is based in Worldcon fandom, and specifically US Worldcon fandom. These fans are circling the wagons, trying to keep the newer fans from ruining their party. It's working: young fans don't want to go to an expensive convention where they'll be treated as second class citizens. At the same time the Worldcon organizers are complaining about how their cons, and their volunteer corps, keep shrinking. If we don't move on to the next generation Worldcon will shrivel up and die. Spokane's proposal is for a small, well run, physically easy but expensive to attend Worldcon set, culturally, squarely in the golden age of science fiction -- that is, the 1950's.

The way forward from here is to have the Worldcon outside the US, where social attitudes are not so mired in the Mesozoic. London in particular is doing all of the right things. We can attract a new generation of fans to refresh the ideas -- and the volunteer base -- of the Worldcon by doing it in Europe. And to hit critical mass, we will need the skeptical young fans who attend Worldcon despite its social reputation to go home to Madrid or Prague and tell their friends that this Worldcon thing is pretty cool after all and get their friends to show up. If the next Worldcon is in Helsinki they will show up and find a culture in which the con chairs are considered over the hill because they are in their 30s. If it is in Spokane the few of them that show up will find a culture that's not so friendly to them after all.

Two years in Europe in a row isn't a bug. It's a feature. We have to do it, to save the Worldcon.

[bryant]

Thanks -- that's an excellent summary. (I was hoping you'd chime in.)

For the curious, here's a map of Orlando's facility. The central lagoon is 1.1 miles in diameter. Although aren't all the events going to be in the convention center?

Either way the cost of returning to your room is not insignificant.

Also flagged for later perusal: Helsinki site visit.

[totient]

Some more data which would have pushed my previous comment over the character limit:

- Australian balloting means your vote is never wasted. Vote for a bid with no chance, and on the second ballot your vote will be counted for your next choice as if you'd voted for that bid in the first place. For this reason I encourage people to always put a joke bid first on their ballot -- it makes no difference to who wins (unless the joke bid is secretly not a joke bid after all) and it encourages joke bidders which improves the party scene. Then vote the rest of your ballot according to your actual preferences without adjusting for what anyone's chances are.

- I did not touch on the fannish politics part. There are, as always, plenty. Orlando's bid committee is kind of small, has almost no one with real experience on Worldcons, and some of their members get on poorly with other convention runners (and not just Worldcon runners, but other next-gen conrunners too). Spokane's committee is enormous (which is good) and affable but two or three of the people who seem to be doing most of the work have very poor reputations for ability as conrunners. Helsinki's committee is in between in size (which means probably somewhat too small) and has only three or four people who've been Worldcon division heads or higher. It does have plenty of chairs of large conventions, but those are mostly Finncon chairs (3) and Arisia chairs (4), not Worldcon chairs.

- Finally, in response to your question: Even just the function space at Coronado Springs is considerably further across than Spokane's or Helsinki's convention centers including those sites' headquarters hotels.

[r-ness.livejournal.com]

Agreed with bryant; these comments are very helpful. Many thanks.

[bryant]

I have no idea why I didn't assume the Worldcon voting was Australian. Cool.

I also had no idea the Coronado Springs function space was that huge. Dang.

[bryant]

To close the loop -- when I got to Worldcon I'd been intending to vote Orlando, Helsinki. After watching the crowds Thursday and Friday, and comparing them to the Worldcons I've been to a decade+ ago, I was sold on the need for a disruptive event and swapped the order. Ah well.